Я на пути

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Kovalenko
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение Kovalenko » Чт мар 23, 2017 11:29 am

окончание:

FLORINDA D: There are, definitely. I do believe that, yes.

ABE: Because we talk about different kinds of luminous bodies.
There are people who read these books and suddenly it's self
recognition time.

FLORINDA D: Precisely, yes.

ABE: Now these books, then, are affecting a change in the way
people perceive themselves.

FLORINDA D: Yes. Basically the goal is how we perceive the world,
and breaking those parameters of perception, in terms of how we
perceive ourselves, too. But, we don't want the focus on the 'I'.
We want to be a witness. Because everything in our society is
filtered through the 'I', through the 'me', we are incapable of
telling a story or recounting an event without making us the main
protagonist, always. You see, Don Juan was interested to let
the event unfold itself, and then it becomes infinitely richer,
because then it opens up. And even in the world, as an exercise,
just become a witness; don't be the protagonist. It's amazing
what opens up.

ABE: Now, on this long path, one of the things that's described
in the literature is that the person, the seer and the Nagual,
everybody, will reach a period of despondency, where they're
sure it's going to fail, nothing's going to ultimately happen.
And the reason I raise this is because I have a sense that this
feeling is actually being shared by many people now. So, please
talk to that for a moment.

FLORINDA D: Yes, exactly. (laughter) I'm going to add to your
depression (laughter). No, it is true. Something in us knows, and
that's why there's the urgency with Don Juan. The imperative
from the point of view of Nature is the perpetuation of the
species, and we are no longer interested. We are interested in
evolution, because evolution is an equal, if not a greater,
imperative than procreation. Because if we don't evolve, if we
don't mutate into something different, we are truly going to
blast ourselves out of this planet, I think irredeemably. We have
destroyed our resources, I mean totally. Whether we have fifty or
a hundred more years in terms of time, as a planet, is
immaterial. It doesn't really matter. We as a species are doomed.
And in that sense, evolution is our only way out. And again, as
Don Juan stresses, evolution is in the hands of women, not of
men.

ABE: So, as a male, what do I do? I just sit here and wait for
women to save the world?

FLORINDA D: Yes and no. You see the man has to relinquish his
power, and he's not going to do it, not peacefully. He's not. I'm
not saying that, you know, you're beating your chest, saying "I
will not relinquish my power". No, it's much more insidious
than that.

ABE: Go into that. Talk about it.

FLORINDA D: Well, I don't think it's ever stated. For instance,
okay, here's these sensitive men who have been in men's groups,
trying to come to terms with their spirituality, and have become
totally in agreement with their wives, their partners, the female
they are with- but not quite. There are certain things they will
not relinquish, it's too threatening. Even this whole idea of the
men's movement originally started out as a truly spiritual
movement. But something in the male is threatened. It is this
fear of relinquishing something that some of them do sense will
have to be relinquished, for us as a species to go on. We
certainly know that the female has to be given time, and has been
given time in the past for something to evolve. For instance,
for us to become erect, when the vagina had to change position,
well, who had to adapt? The males. The penis had to grow larger.
The female again needs time. And the male has to give her that
time. From one point of view the male has to give the female time
for the womb to try to switch into its secondary function.

ABE: And that can't happen if the man is relating to the woman
sexually. Is that what you're saying?

FLORINDA D: No. See, there have to be enough females who have
that time that something will have to change in the womb. They
have to drawn a new possibility. Don Juan said our evolution is
intent. You see, that leap from the large reptiles to flying,
this idea of wings, was intended. It was an act of intent

ABE: That's very interesting. So you feel that women all over the
world currently, sisterhoods of different kinds, are intending
a new human future?

FLORINDA D: They're not aware of it. Some women, I think, are, totally.

ABE: So the man is now going to take a back seat in the evolution
of the species.

FLORINDA D: Exactly, right. Not a back seat. Again, those are
words that define a positive/negative kind of connotation. No.
You have to provide the time.

ABE: How can the man do that? Talk about that functionally.

FLORINDA D: You see, we women are relegated to the status of
second class citizens. No matter what power we have, we still
don't have any real power. We don't decide anything. And even for
us to talk in little groups, it's almost Iike banging against a
huge iron door, because whoever decides, whoever's in power, is
not going to relinquish this for the hell of it. Let's look in
terms of politics, let's say Washington or your capital. I mean,
do you think for a moment those men are going to even listen to
what we're saying? Not in the least. But some kinds of pockets
have to be found for something new to develop. Otherwise we're
doomed. And this idea for us to save the planet, the environ-
ment, all we are really thinking is that we as a species will not
survive. The earth will certainly survive; it might go into some
kind of horrendous winter, but eventually it will come out of
it. But we as a species will not survive.

ABE: Why would a woman read this book Being-in-Dreaming?

FLORINDA D: Very interesting, hm. Well, if nothing else, I think
people who have been interested in the Castaneda work, would be
interested to see it presented from a female's perspective,
from somebody who has been in that work for over twenty years. I
do approach the problems differently, probably more directly. The
thing is perception. Even our human bodies...the body is, again,
a consequence of perception. We are trapped as persons; we are
trapped in language, and that's exactly what the sorcerer,
through energy, wants to get out of.

END

minmax
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение minmax » Чт мар 23, 2017 7:43 pm

Спасибо за статьи! Кое-что прояснилось :)

Nameless
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение Nameless » Чт мар 23, 2017 8:23 pm

oldzpace писал(а):
Чт мар 23, 2017 8:43 am
О чем идет речь? "Колесо Времени" - рано. Или было что-то еще о чем мы не знаем? В 1981 опубликован только "Дар Орла". Но на журнал или учебник как-то не похоже.
Видимо, о журнале, который вышел только в 96 году под названием "Путь воина", позже переименованном в "Читателей бесконечности", и состоял всего из четырех выпусков.

"My attempts to publish this journal go back as far as 1971, when I presented this format to some book editors, who promptly turned me down because it did not conform to the preconceived notion of a scholarly journal, nor did it conform to the format of a magazine, or even a newsletter. My argument that the ideas contained in the journal were foreign enough to dictate a format that was an amalgamation of all three of those established genres did not have the sufficient force to convince them to publish it. The title that I had for the journal, at that time, was The Journal of Ethno-Hermeneutics. Years later, I actually found that a publication bearing that name was in circulation.

Now, I find myself in the position of publishing this journal. It is not an attempt at commercializing anything, nor is it a vehicle for apologetics of any sort. I envision it as an attempt to join the Western man’s world of philosophical speculation with the seeing-observations of the Indian sorcerers who lived in Mexico in ancient times and whose cultural descendants were don Juan Matus and his cohorts."

https://alamogordo.wordpress.com/2008/1 ... -infinity/

oldzpace
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение oldzpace » Чт мар 23, 2017 9:53 pm

Nameless писал(а):
Чт мар 23, 2017 8:23 pm
Спасибо за инфу. Не знал об этих журналах. Интересно, есть ли их переводы на русский?

узелок
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение узелок » Пт мар 24, 2017 1:50 am

Kovalenko писал(а):
Вт мар 21, 2017 12:43 pm
В русских переводах Кастанеды нам называют "врагов человека знания" таким образом:
Страх, Знание, Сила, Старость.
Но в оригинале они перечислены так:
Fear, Indulgence, Complacency, Old Age.
На мой взгляд, индульгирование или потакание себе это не знание.
А удовлетворенность или самодовольство это не сила.

И возникает вопрос: того ли Кастанеду мы читаем?
И все же, интересно, в каком оригинале написано: "Fear, Indulgence, Complacency, Old Age"?

Я нашел книгу в которой написано: Fear, Clarity, Power, Old age.
Правда, ПДФ версия книги опубликована в 2006 году, а данных о книге с которой взят текст нету.

узелок
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение узелок » Пт мар 24, 2017 2:42 am

Черт, один я замечаю эту лажу в переводе статьи?

"To break that perceptive arc isn't an easy task; it could take years. The
difficulty with me," he affirmed laughing, "is that I am very pigheaded.
Quite unwillingly I went on learning: For this reason, in my case, Don Juan
had to use drugs...
and so I ended up...with my liver in the stream!
Перевод:
-- Разрушить это восприятие нелегко, на это могут уйти
годы. Сложности в моем случае возникали из за того, что я был
очень упрям, -- сказал он, смеясь. -- Я был довольно таки
нерасположен к тому, чтобы учиться: поэтому дону Хуану пришлось применить наркотики.. И ВСЁ! ТЕКСТА НЕТ!.

И я понимаю автора перевода. В одном месте и, вероятно, отсылка к роману Хемингуэя, и тружнопереводимый ended up. Но можно же было заменить чем-то хотя бы близким по смыслу.
-- Разрушить эту дугу восприятия [контекст: речь идет о внимании тоналя или "первом кольце силы"] нелегкая задача, могут уйти
годы. Сложность со мной в том, -- сказал он, смеясь, -- что я был
очень упрямый. Довольно неохотно я взялся за обучение: поэтому дон Хуану пришлось применить наркотики... и это был конец... конец моей печени!

Kovalenko, после таких твоих постов ты теперь просто обязан поделиться настоящим Кастанедой. :evil:
Хотябы со мной.

---
Kovalenko писал(а):
Вт мар 21, 2017 12:43 pm

Nameless
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение Nameless » Пт мар 24, 2017 7:25 am

oldzpace писал(а):
Чт мар 23, 2017 9:53 pm
Спасибо за инфу. Не знал об этих журналах. Интересно, есть ли их переводы на русский?
В софийской книжке "Карлос Кастанеда. Лекции и интервью" вроде бы они целиком или почти целиком приведены, только не по порядку и вперемешку с другими материалами, эти же отрывки, кажется, можно найти в интернете.

oldzpace
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение oldzpace » Пт мар 24, 2017 7:53 am

Nameless писал(а):
Пт мар 24, 2017 7:25 am
В софийской книжке "Карлос Кастанеда. Лекции и интервью" вроде бы они целиком или почти целиком приведены, только не по порядку и вперемешку с другими материалами, эти же отрывки, кажется, можно найти в интернете.
Еще раз благодарю. Посмотрю.

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lugebana
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение lugebana » Пт мар 24, 2017 9:14 am

узелок писал(а):
Пт мар 24, 2017 2:42 am
Kovalenko, после таких твоих постов ты теперь просто обязан поделиться настоящим Кастанедой.
Поддерживаю! Зародилось сомнение в русском переводе... :)

узелок
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Re: Я на пути

Сообщение узелок » Пт мар 24, 2017 6:00 pm

Нашел теневой сайт в англоязычном сегменте Интернета. Там есть все: и журнал, и интервью, и книги. Но нету тех оригиналов, в которых не обычные 4 врага человека знания.

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