Help to understand

charlila

Re: Help to understand - workshop

Сообщение charlila » Пт окт 28, 2011 2:13 pm

to judge by my dreams - (which tend to skip between past present and future) - yes, some will say yes and we'll mannage to work together; i dreamed some of it already.
skipping linear time... oh, that was in the post that was mysteriousely deleted twice... last ravenna's task.

another was the dream were 2 guys - warriors - drem hackers? went with me to the dead see (it was westward instead of eastward) - i got into the water, a sudden whirlpool threatened to drown me, i got out with a gush of intent.
than we were in Pardes Hanna, saw my ex walking toward us, on the street, i gave him a stone that was at the time on my table and continued walking.

following this dream i prepared a net for the stone (to wear a a jewel) and left it in mt ex's post box.

there were more dreams.
~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~ ~~~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Saso
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение Saso » Ср ноя 02, 2011 12:20 pm

ioneks писал(а):It's a poem, which is a description of the first hexagram of the I-Ching. Here it is, from the very start:
Originating from the term, piercing
advantageous, right and firm.


The dragon lurks: it is no time to act.
The dragon's in the field: now make thy pact.
Be active, watchful, using care and tact.
The dragon leaps; a bursting cataract.
The dragon ploughs the sky with pace exact.
Exceed not, dragon; Lest thy force react.

(If all this heavenly hosts of dragons lacked
their heads, good fortune would become a fact.)
Sideic, any help is welcome, even from russians =)
I believe that the word-to-word interpretation that we discussed before would be appropriate to the context.

But on the other hand, another thought appeared to me last night. Considering the fact that I-Ching is a means of personal/spiritual transformation, word-to-word translation would make no sense. Let's assume that the "heavenly hosts" are humans and "dragons" are our thoughts. In this case the interpretation would mean that if we prune our heads of unnecessary thoughts, limiting beliefs etc., all that would remain would be pure experience. That's what I would call good fortune. :D

Since the discussion is about the dragons - I was wondering, what are dragons in dreamworld? Allies? Inorganics? Scouts? Or something else?

Regards,

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ioneks
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение ioneks » Ср ноя 02, 2011 3:09 pm

Hey, Saso.

I'm infused, that the topic found some resonance. Thank you for your response. Your idea about who dragons and hosts are kind of adds new dimension to the consideration of the topic. Charlila's post made similar effect, since her opinion was quite unexpected and unusual too. I'm sure this discussion will lead us to better understanding of this poem (and other poems from that book too).

As to your question, I myself have never seen dragons in dreams (I saw snakes, though). I think dragons may refer to egyptian god Set and his minions. Once Horus defeated Set. After some time people started to consider Set evil. Since then in many myths heroes defeat dragons and snake-like monsters. But in China, as far as I know, even in nowadays dragons are considered good. I think it's because they've preserved their traditions unchanged since the times when Set was considered good by most people (before the Horus age had come).

Saso
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение Saso » Ср ноя 02, 2011 3:46 pm

ioneks писал(а):Hey, Saso.

I'm infused, that the topic found some resonance. Thank you for your response. Your idea about who dragons and hosts are kind of adds new dimension to the consideration of the topic. Charlila's post made similar effect, since her opinion was quite unexpected and unusual too. I'm sure this discussion will lead us to better understanding of this poem (and other poems from that book too).
I'm glad to put a different perspective on the subject. :)
ioneks писал(а):As to your question, I myself have never seen dragons in dreams (I saw snakes, though). I think dragons may refer to egyptian god Set and his minions. Once Horus defeated Set. After some time people started to consider Set evil. Since then in many myths heroes defeat dragons and snake-like monsters. But in China, as far as I know, even in nowadays dragons are considered good. I think it's because they've preserved their traditions unchanged since the times when Set was considered good by most people (before the Horus age had come).
Interesting point of view. I recall reading some channeled materials from Set about dreams, multidimensionality and similar but I never thought about connecting him with dragons. I mean, as far as I know, dragons were "around" long before Ancient Egypt.

charlila

Re: Help to understand

Сообщение charlila » Вс ноя 06, 2011 12:45 am

[quote=saso]Let's assume that the "heavenly hosts" are humans and "dragons" are our thoughts. In this case the interpretation would mean that if we prune our heads of unnecessary thoughts, limiting beliefs etc., all that would remain would be pure experience. That's what I would call good fortune. :D[/quote]

[quote=charlila...]
...[they are] "... reptilians, including greys. the twist of karma is something they did at the dawn of history, in order to chain our species, enslave it; and yes, they are in some kind of control "from heaven" (through our source of inspiration, our link with spirit, which they twisted) over all (? most?) humans.
[/quote]

less difference than it seems between what we say - "thoughts" for most people are what practically left from the link with Spirit - and thoughts sure represent the dragons... while getting rid of thoughts would cut off the dragons' mind control.
"heavenly hosts" are humans? hmm... what's so heavenly about humans?

Saso
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение Saso » Вс ноя 06, 2011 2:26 pm

charlila писал(а):less difference than it seems between what we say - "thoughts" for most people are what practically left from the link with Spirit - and thoughts sure represent the dragons... while getting rid of thoughts would cut off the dragons' mind control.
Well, I don't know... I mean, I am familiar with the theory of reptilian mind and therefore can agree with you about getting rid of dragons' mind control by eliminating thoughts, but on the other hand I also believe that what you refer to as "the link with Spirit" is hidden within us, somewhere between the thoughts (and with "thoughts" i think not only of "random thoughts" that run through our minds but also our belief systems, the way we perceive and interpret the world around us etc.). And as far as I understand, what we're trying to do here is to find that link and reconnect with the Spirit so that we can expand and explore what I believe to be unlimited possibilities beyond the domain of ordinary human perception.
charlila писал(а):"heavenly hosts" are humans? hmm... what's so heavenly about humans?
I understand what you mean. Truth be told, I even agree with you. But still – as far as I see it, each of us has the potential to evolve beyond limiting human beliefs and to explore realities that exist far beyond our wildest imagination. Wouldn't you call that at least a little bit heavenly? :)

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ioneks
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение ioneks » Вс ноя 06, 2011 3:51 pm

The poem listed above is only the one poem of many. Dragons are mentioned in a number of poems. The next such poem is #2. Let's see if it'll clarify who dragons are.

One more thing, The first poem is about hexagram #1, “The Creative”. All 6 lines are Yang. The next hexagram, #2, “The Receptive” is the direct opposite of the first hexagram: all its 6 lines are Yin. So the meaning of the 2th poem is expexted to be the direct opposite of the 1st one (in some sense). I thought this may help to understand.
Hexagram #2, “The Receptive” писал(а): Great, originating, right and fair,
piercing and helpful, firm as in the mare.
If the true man should move, his feet will stray;
for him to follow is his proper way.

Hoar-frost! The strong one cometh by and by.
Straight, square and great, advantage springs to aye.
Maintain, but boast not virtue's majesty.
Here is a sack made safe by skillful tie.
Behold the yellow skirt; ill fortune fly.
Dragons at war: Gold, blood and porphyry.

(Correct and firm the conduct, thou shalt spy
good fortune from the sky.)
There are things not very clear to me, so, please correct me if my understanging is wrong (my English is not good enough). I appreciate it very much.

As far as I understood, the first verse is saying about somebody very powerful, a true man. But, despite his power the man can't move on his own. Maybe the situation is too hard for him to manage, so the only thing he can do is to follow somebody or something.

The third verse (in brackets) is saying, that one should improve oneself's conducting ability (possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse), in which case the one will have good fortune. So the meaning is the same: don't do things on your own, just obey and follow others, and good fortune will be yours.

As far as I see, the first verse in poems #1 and the first verse in poem #2 has the opposite meaning. In the 1st hexagram, it is said, that the one is capable of doing things and noone can predict or impede them. In the first verse of the 2nd hexagram the one is unable to do things on his own, he only can follow others.

In such way, we may expect the third verse of both poems to have opposite meanings. This may help to understand the meaning of the third verse of the 1st hexagram.

Saso
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение Saso » Пн ноя 07, 2011 5:00 pm

ioneks писал(а):As far as I understood, the first verse is saying about somebody very powerful, a true man. But, despite his power the man can't move on his own. Maybe the situation is too hard for him to manage, so the only thing he can do is to follow somebody or something.
I could agree with that. What I can't understand is why a person of such power should merely follow. I mean, if there would only be followers, we would still believe that the Earth is flat… But on the other hand, since it is a hexagram called "The Receptive", it could also mean that a nudge, a push in the right direction or something alike is required for someone to embark... let's say on a new path.
ioneks писал(а):The third verse (in brackets) is saying, that one should improve oneself's conducting ability (possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse), in which case the one will have good fortune. So the meaning is the same: don't do things on your own, just obey and follow others, and good fortune will be yours.
I think that the conduct in this case is the person leading, being in charge – therefore good fortune (of the team/of the one that follows?) is in a way dependent on the abilities of the leader.
ioneks писал(а):As far as I see, the first verse in poems #1 and the first verse in poem #2 has the opposite meaning. In the 1st hexagram, it is said, that the one is capable of doing things and noone can predict or impede them. In the first verse of the 2nd hexagram the one is unable to do things on his own, he only can follow others.
I find this rather confusing. I mean, the I-Ching is supposed to be about changes and transformation, while not being able to do things but only to follow gives me kind of a negative impression. Probably I'm just not seeing something...
ioneks писал(а):In such way, we may expect the third verse of both poems to have opposite meanings. This may help to understand the meaning of the third verse of the 1st hexagram.
The only obvious connection between the first and the second hexagram that I see is the last line of the second verse in "The Receptivity" hexagram, saying
Dragons at war: Gold, blood and porphyry.
If we continue to assume that the dragons are (our) thoughts, this could explain the ever lasting conflict in man – the struggle for money, power and natural resources.

I hope this helps in any way...

Regards,

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ioneks
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Re: Help to understand

Сообщение ioneks » Пн ноя 07, 2011 5:44 pm

Hello, Saso!

I'm sure our discussion will throw light upon the question. Originally, I had no intention of discussing I-Ching, I only had problems with understanding English. I couldn't imagine that somebody will be interested in discussing I-Ching with me. But it happened, and I'm happy about it, because my understanding will grow deeper.

Let me say some words about the I-Ching.

Originally, the I-Ching was supposed to perform divination with it. The one, who asks the I-Ching about his current situation and its expected future development, throws yarrow stalks to cast two hexagrams: the one that describes the current situation, and the other one that describes the next situation, that will come after the current situation (I won't go into details of the procedure, they are not essential right now).

For example, if someone has problems with his money, he may consult the I-Ching to understand, what causes the problems with the money and what will happen after a while (maybe money will come, maybe even worse situation will happen).

Each hexagram is a linear combination of 6 lines (each line is called yao). Each yao can be either a broken line (called Yin) or a solid line (called Yang). There are 64 possible combinations of Yins and Yangs (for 6 lines), that's why there is a total of 64 hexagrams.

So each of 64 hexagrams describes the 64 different types of situations (not changes). And the properties of each situation are caused by Yins and Yangs in certain positions. That is why I said, that the situations, which are described by the 1st and the 2nd hexagrams must be opposite. Because Yang is an opposite of Yin.

For example, the hexagram #1, “The Creative” is a combination of 6 Yangs (all 6 lines of the hexagram are solid). It is a situation, when a man is powerful, he is a master of his life (at least for now). This is how Yang works; piercing, advantageous, firm — those are properties of Yang, the male origin, and we see those properties in the poem.

The hexagram #2, “The Receptive”, is a combination of 6 Yins (all 6 lines are broken). Its a situation, where one is unable to do anything, but follow something or someone (also, at least for now). This is how Yin works; being weak, open, amenable — those are properties of Yin, the female origin, and we see, those properties in the second poem.

charlila

Re: Help to understand

Сообщение charlila » Вт ноя 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Saso писал(а): as far as I see it, each of us has the potential to evolve beyond limiting human beliefs and to explore realities that exist far beyond our wildest imagination. Wouldn't you call that at least a little bit heavenly? :)

no. "potential to evolve" is not Here and Now. as DJ said, (back-translated from memory) one needs steel balls and the adequate body to sustain them in order to explore the unknown.
Saso писал(а):I think that the conduct in this case is the person leading,... – therefore good fortune (of the team/of the one that follows?) is in a way dependent on the abilities of the leader.
i-ching's advise is given to the asker, therefore - it's the follower's conduct which is discussed.
ioneks писал(а):(possibly, the ability to follow, mentioned in the first verse)
not necessarily. could be anything within your action field while being led.

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